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I am playing as the Duke of Bohemia. My liege is the Kaiser. My vassals have 2 of the 3 counties of the (de jure) Duchy of Moravia.

I was planning to create the title Duke of Moravia, but the Kaiser (my liege) created the title for himself first.

It looks like I can usurp the Duke of Moravia title once I have enough money. Is that true? Also, could the Kaiser usurp the title back from me?

EDIT: Upon closer examination, I discovered that my brother (who held the 3rd county of de jure Moravia) had the Duke title. (I assume he was given the title by his liege the Kaiser, although I don't remember seeing a notification.) I was able to usurp the Duke of Moravia title from my brother.

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    Try demanding the duchy from your liege. Otherwise, you'll have to go independent before usurping.
    – walrus helmet
    Mar 29, 2013 at 0:20

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No, you can't usurp a title from your liege.

You can usurp a title from your sibling-vassals and anyone from another kingdom, though. It will be possible to usurp that title if you declare independence and win (because you can't usurp a title from anyone who's at war). Since the Holy Roman Empire occasionally enters bouts of multiple rebellion, maybe you can join the crowd and earn your freedom the next time it comes around, then usurp the duchy afterward.

(Note: I haven't tried to usurp a title from a liege, but it's telling that none of my vassals have ever tried to usurp one from me. I've even held a duchy when a single vassal owned all of the counties in that duchy — I eventually passed that duchy onto someone else so I wouldn't have to deal with the "vassal wants the duchy" penalty. My vassals usurp titles from each other from time to time, so they're plenty capable of it.)

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  • Of note is that you also can't usurp or create title from another realm if it is equal or greater than that of your liege. For example, an ambitious Duke of Provence cannot create Kingdom of Burgundy while being a vassal of the King of France.
    – mindcorrosive
    May 27, 2013 at 16:57
  • Your vassals were not usurping higher titles. They were probably just usurping duchies from each other.
    – Roger
    Jan 21, 2015 at 4:45
  • @Roger, there's nothing special about higher titles that makes them protected. The in-game rules about usurping apply from count titles up to emperor titles. And, as it happens, one of those in-game rules is that you can't usurp titles from your liege.
    – PotatoEngineer
    Jan 21, 2015 at 16:32
  • Yes the only higher title for the dukes is their liege's king title. Also it is probably worth mentioning the difference between usurping a title and fighting for it with a valid casus belli. You can still fight your liege for his duchy if you have a claim on it but you cannot usurp it if you have a majority of its de jure counties.
    – Roger
    Jan 21, 2015 at 17:47
  • I'm not sure about back than, but now you can't give a Duchy to someone who hasn't already got a County in that Duchy, so either he didn't have all the counties, or the rules changed.
    – o0'.
    Sep 8, 2015 at 15:20

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