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TL;DR;

With all the armor and health and health-regeneration, what's the strategy that I should use to win team fights in the end game?

The tanks can go without trouble and kill my ap, adc and any other threats to their damage-dealers. And they can protect their own while we can't do the same, since they are 2~3 doing the "body-guard" job.

PS: Early game is easy, the problem is in the mid/end game.


I play solo queue in silver. Some games I lose because an immature kid gets upset by whatever and starts trolling. Some games I lose because my teammates don't have a clue how to play in the teamfight phase. Some games I lose because me or my teammates loose the laning phase (which is ok, you can't win every game). Some games I lose because we are being outplayed and outsmarted, which actually makes the game enjoyable (unless we are crushed beyond hope) and ends up with me respecting the opposite team.

But what really leaves me thinking and frustrated is when I have a good/decent team, we get out of the laning phase ahead, and lose late game because we (and by inclusion — me) don't know how to deal with their team comp. Since season 4 start, it seems to me that team comps with double tanks + tank support (which is an effective 3'rd tank late game in this season) are extremely strong and very, very effective late game. To me it looks that they are actually unbeatable. So I would like to know how to deal with it. As stated I consider the case where I have decent teammates, who don't do stupid things like roaming alone in the fog of war, engaging on tanks or chasing halfway across the map after a support kill. And we position (I think correctly) when grouped, with a front line, a middle line and a back line. And we have some level of communication and coordination (as much as it is possible in solo queue).

They usually hard engage with the front line on one of our carry, going behind our front line. And since their front line is so strong, this means dead carry, or at least out of fight carry. After that it is usually clean up.

Now before you start theorizing and preaching about which team comps counters which team comps, remember this is solo queue silver, and everybody just plays what they know/want and at the very best they counter their lane. And the best team comp planification I can hope for is when we are at the last two picks and someone (usually me) says 'we need a tank'. So what I need to know is how can I make the best of it while stuck in a random team comp.


I would like general tips on how to handle this kind of situation, but I understand that it depends on particular situations, so here it is the most recent game I had:

Their comp:

  • Rene, Jarvan, Leona — tanks, initiators
  • Cait, Malzahar — carries

Our comp:

  • Garen — tank
  • Kha — assassin
  • Lucian, Lux — carries
  • Morgana — support

We were all decent and not doing stupid things, and everybody was doing what they were supposed to do on a general way (but apparently not for this particular tem comp).

We got ahead out of the laning phase. Mid game we still won fights, some fights they won. We were still ahead of them, we even got 3 aces, but we were too weak afterwards to take any important objective (as the respawn timers weren't that long yet). Going into late game, we still won a few fights, but it was clear by now that we were going to lose. We didn't have a solution for their 3 tanks-initiators. Late game they won fights decisively and took big objectives afterwards (respawn timers were now long enough).

This was one game, but I had a lot of similar games where we started ahead but lost EVERY TIME late game because we couldn't deal with their tanks.


Thanks to the ones that read this quite long post.

  • You create a wall post with some "interesting" information, that doesn't regard the question itself. I was thinking in edit it for you, but... would probably be a huge change. Try be more specific with what you want (in my opinion would be "how to deal with multiple tanks champions in the endgame" or something like that) – Michel Feb 15 '14 at 17:00
  • i searched for "?" couldn't find it :( – Esqarrouth Feb 15 '14 at 21:56
  • @Esq You are right. There is no '?'. Have you tried reading instead of searching though: 'So I would like to know…' 'So what I need to know is…' 'I would like general tips on how…' – bolov Feb 15 '14 at 22:44
  • @Michel I admit that it is a long post, however besides the first paragraph I think that it is related to the question. I explain the real life situation I need help with, emphasising that I don't want a general counter meta guide I can find on the web where it tells you which team comp counters which team comp. The example between the horizontal lines is just so that I don't get something like: too general, it depends on the actual champions. – bolov Feb 15 '14 at 22:54
  • Sometimes it does the opposite, just misleading the reader. You can try to be more succinct in your problem – Michel Feb 16 '14 at 14:28
6

Note: This question could clearly been asked in a shorter way.

The counter to tanks is ADC. But the counter to ADC is bruisers.

Any bruiser can easily solo a carry, unless they are a skilled vayne, jinx, ezreal etc.. The carry needs to kite really well and CC from his support to help him last longer from the bruisers all-in attacks. Once their all-in attacks fail the carry can freely hit most bruisers without taking too much damage.

What if they have 3 people diving on the carry? You definitely need a really skilled carry working with a skilled support player to survive this kind of attack. The support should delay their advance while the carry gets them low enough for either teammates to take notice or just waste their time by kiting around.

Now there are some certain picks that will work really well againts heavy tanks. Of course you will have to master these champions to really be effective.

Support:
Alistar - Not a good initiator like people think he is, but he is an awesome carry defender. Your carry should ofc be getting free hits while you do this.

Blitzcrank: Can initiate and pull out an important target from the enemy also has good CC to protect the carry. When they dive, punch their bruiser, he will try to dive on the carry again, then pull him back. Your carry should ofc be getting free hits while you do this.

Janna, Lulu, Nami: Good players won't let enemy bruisers touch your carry. Just focus on protecting your carry, instead of hitting their carries.

ADC: Ashe - Has no chance of surviving 3 tank dives, has low chance even with 2 tank dives. BUT a skilled Ashe player can catch one of the enemy of guard with her ulti. Turn the fight easily into 4v5 and carry.

Ezreal: Can easily kite dives on you, does not deal too much damage but pretty hard to catch.

Kog'Maw, Vayne: Anti-tank will melt them. Really hard to play without a good support.

APC:
Brand: Does not usually survive the laning phase, but is he does, has awesome AOE, percent based nukes that can melt any tank.

Karthus: They are killing you? No problem. Just die in a proper place so you can damage with your AOE. They are diving ADC? No problem. Just kill them from behind.

Syndra: Can burst down anyone diving in.

Jungle:
Trundle: Your tankyness are belong to us

Any Position:
Kayle: Her whole kit is anti-bruiser. Helps yourself and your allies. Keep your distanced from your carry, if they dive him, ulti your carry, wait, slow them, wait heal your carry, while taking the tank down. If they dive you ulti yourself and try to flash away.

Also as items consider BOTRK, Liandrys and penetration items againts tanky teams.

  • I've read my question again and you are right, it is too long. I've added a tl;dr question. Thanks for your answer. It is helpful. – bolov Feb 16 '14 at 23:32
  • Would like to Ad Amumu to the anti-tank/bruiser panel with his tears and CC to protect carries for an other 2 sec he can clearly do the job :-D – Hystic Feb 17 '14 at 13:37
  • He is a better initiator than a protector – Esqarrouth Feb 17 '14 at 14:10
  • ''ADC: Ashe - Has no chance of surviving 3 tank dives, has low chance even with 2 tank dives.'' Lmfao good one – Matt Cristao Jan 30 '15 at 3:53
2

You mentioned that a concern is that you cannot specifically pick a counter composition as its solo queue - what is left is itemization assuming that champ selection is out of your control.

BotRK is a fairly obvious pickup for ADCs, even if their normal build path would prefer BT it may be worth varying that to get %hp shred with multiple tanks around. Similarly itemize Liandry's Torment on mages.

If you have mostly ranged champions, then you really want to improve your kiting chances to be able to whittle them down over time. Consider picking up Iceborn Gauntlet to whack them & make them slower, probably on the tank as they're less likely to get bursted down at the start of teamfights (removing the chance to apply the slow). Going for Alacrity enchant on boots (or Furor for ADC) helps you keep the edge on speed as well.

You're also likely to have Randuins on the tank and/or support etc., but if fights are going to be long drawn-out affairs then you cannot just depend on short lived item actives.

Basically, this will become a poke comp vs all-in comp during team fights - even if you have 1 or 2 champions who prefer all-ins (like Garen) they need to aim for skirmishes and focus on distracting one at a time for the longer range champs to finish off.

1

The other responses have good advice, but I'm not quite sure they actually answered your question. Your question asked how to deal with it, and you don't have control over your team.

Someone like lucian is great vs those heavy tank comps because of his high mobility. Also consider picking up additional items like trinity force because they greatly help kiting if you are the adc.

Basically, try to NEVER fight. Garen should spend his time split pushing other lanes because he can do that very well and if they go to collapse on him, he should be able to quickly get out and survive. If they do that, then your team should press an objective.

Try to not ever get a direct fight. Ward properly and try to catch single targets overextending. If a direct fight happens (as it will sometimes be unavoidable), your carries need to abuse their kiting along with the support. In your specific comp, garen and kha'zix are both horrible peelers which is fine. Send them to try to take out the enemy carries, or at least stop them from damaging yours. Keep flash saved for jarvan's ult. Vs that dive, you should actually be able to keep backing up and using snares/slows to stop them from reaching the carries. If they actually manage a solid engage, an ult from the Morgana should reset it and allow your carries some breathing room to kite more. Low CDs are very important here. Chalice would be a great item on lux. You need her to be able to keep up her constant snares and slows.

I understand that your real question isn't only about this comp, but thinking in this way should allow you to adapt it to other champions. You need to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of your champions and play to them. Like garen and kha can't peel for anything, make them keep the enemy carries busy. For example, if you had say Amumu instead of kha'zix, you know you don't have a strong enough dive comp to use his initiation. Instead save him for peel. His bandage toss is a good stun for tanks who are diving carries, and his ultimate should easily hit all 3 tanks when they try to jump your carries. His crying also does aoe damage that does % health and so it will help drop their tanks quickly. At this point you would send the garen after their carries alone, but use amumu for peeling. Once the fight of carries vs tanks are over, the poke carries will win out over the standard ones. (Yes you will assume garen dies, but you just need him to keep their damage away while u shred their carries. This would be an amazing anti dive comp: Amumu, Morg, Lux, Lucian, Garen. Garen is the only weakness but if he's tanky enough and keeps them busy long enough it's fine.

Always ward properly so that you can choose when a good time to fight is. (Usually after being up several objectives. Have a super wave push another lane and then siege a different base turret)

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