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Playing Terran in my previous league I've beat a lot of other Terrans with Mega Rax strategy. In my implementation it looks like this:

  • 10 Supply
  • 11 Barrack
  • 12 Refinery
  • 14(or15) Barrack 2
  • in mean time (as resources allows) tech-lab for 1st barrack, reactors to other tech labs, research stim-pack, and pump marines.

Too often that worked good: usually opponent has some marauders, rarely 1-2 tanks (without siege mode), probably bunker...

But, after been promoted to next league, too often I stuck with my strategy. In higher league, they build tanks quicker and when I have good amount marines to push the bunker on the entrance - they get tank in siege mode - and my "marine push" - died.

...

For sure, I can scout (scan) and see if my opponent goes to factory, stop my marine push and switch to other builds. But the problem here is that I didn't build refinery early, I spend for barracks... I still could win and trying to do that, but:

If opponent PLAN from the beginning to go to quick factory and tanks:

  • 10 supply
  • 10 refinery
  • 11(12) Barrack

he will have factory as quickly as I will have 2nd barrack. and he will have 1st tank in 45 more seconds.

Let's assume I don't build refinery/gas/tech-lab. So, if opponent builds tech-lab on 1st rax - he will have 1 marine less then I will (if I will go baracks only). If he build factory/tech-lab/refinery he will have 100+25+75+30*0.9=227 minerals less (75 - cost of refinery, 30*0.9 - amount of minerals that could be collected by SCV instead of building Refinery, 100+25 - amount of gas. I assume, that workers collect gas with the same rate as minerals). Plus 100 for bunker - 327 minerals

So I will be able to have 4 barracks against his 1 barrack + 1 factory. In the same time.

Each 50 seconds: - I will produce 8 marines; - he will produce 2 marines + 1 tank.

Till the time he research "siege mode" (80 seconds) I will have around 13 marines, he will have 2 tanks + 4 marines (been sitting in bunker, having SCV repairing bunker/tanks... Plus time for my army to reach his base...

Here is a naked theory but it seems like there are no any chances to beat 'quick-siege-tanks' BO with 'pure marine' build.

If I add into my BO refinery and tech-lab, I will have my army smaller and later and don't think stim-pack will help to beat tanks behind the bunker...

Please see my thought and let me know if something is wrong in my calculations.

If you know some good replays for this particular case (diamond level players would be the best :) ) - you are very welcome (I would prefer really replace, not video as it is very required here to see exact timing of all things happened).

Thank you very much in advance.

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  • You're over-analyzing the entire thing. Truth is there is no right answer to the question of Marine Rushes vs Quick Siege (and anyone who tells you otherwise is misleading you). A very polished Marine Rush will beat a rough Quick Siege (just look at MKP), and a polished Quick Siege will beat a rough Marine Rush. At the end of the day, polishing your build is going to out weigh any sort of meta-gaming. That said, you might want to pick an easier build to polish (ie. something with Marauders in it).
    – tzenes
    Feb 8, 2011 at 19:17
  • 3
    Just for future reference, you don't need to add "StarCraft2:" to the beginning of your questions, as long as they're tagged with [starcraft-2]. =)
    – Brant
    Feb 8, 2011 at 19:30
  • Probably it is a little bit redundant, but... still looks good for my. I like that style... But, probably you are right... Will try to follow
    – Budda
    Feb 8, 2011 at 23:12

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This may not be the answer you want, exactly, as it doesn't cover how to recover from a situation where you mass up marines before scouting your opponent going for a tech build.

Skill levels between opponents being equal, it is not cost-effective to try to stick to a mass marines build vs an opponent going for marines and siege tanks. Siege tanks are a direct counter to marines, and any resources spent on trying to overwhelm siege tanks with marines are better spent on other tactics.

When you are a Terran player going against a Terran opponent, that should be your first indication to expect siege tanks. It doesn't always happen, but siege tanks are seen often in TvT play simply because they're a great answer to an opponent who might be massing the standard marine/marauder rush or teching up to the marine/marauder/medivac (MMM) ball. Because of this, it is dangerous to enter a TvT match-up and just start pumping out marines without proper scouting of your opponent.

Think of it this way: as a Terran vs another Terran, you have the following outcomes if you are dead-set on massing marines:

  • You mass marine, they mass marine: Draw.
  • You mass marine, they mass marine/marauder: You win.
  • You mass marine, they tech to hellions: You lose.
  • You mass marine, they tech to tanks: You lose.

If you are scouted as going mass marine, you'll end up encountering mech of some sort, and that is not good news for you. You're a bit better off if you have marauders as well since they do pretty well against hellions and siege tanks (provided you have concussive shells vs hellions and line-of-sight on the tanks (and stim always helps)).

The reason mass marines worked for you in lower-level play is because you were dealing with players who did not macro/tech as fast. I would suggest you abandon this strategy altogether in higher-level play. I could get away with mass reapers in Bronze, but trying that in higher level play is going to get me killed more often than not. It's better to go with a more traditional build.

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  • I've seen MKP handle both Hellions and Tanks with mass marine... I think the entire concept of hard counters is overblown.
    – tzenes
    Feb 8, 2011 at 23:49
  • I've seen it work as well. It's hard to give definitive answers on things like counters because the skill of the player can weigh heavily on whether or not you can succeed in a scenario. Typically, though, if you're a good enough player to pull it off, you're pretty confident in your methodology. If you remove skill from the equation and assume players of equal skill, however, it's reasonable to consider soft counters (such as this) in your response to a situation.
    – Shaun
    Feb 9, 2011 at 0:03
  • for something long term, such as: he has a lot of Tanks, maybe I should be building more Marauders/Vikings, I think that line of thinking makes sense. For something like: 2 Rax opening vs Siege rush, the margin for error (at any skill level) is so small that I don't think it much matters
    – tzenes
    Feb 9, 2011 at 6:49
  • Tzenes, if you consider 'Siege rush' why you start with 2 rax?
    – Budda
    Feb 9, 2011 at 18:15

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