5

I've noticed that Jolteon's agility can make up for their lower HP. Rather than go toe-to-toe with a Snorlax, Vaporeon, Slobrow, etc. and make it a blow for blow bloodbath, Jolteons can compete because they are best at dodging. The Jolteon can "float like a butterfly and sting like a bee."

That said, to bring diversity to a gym defense which is often a high HP based on water defense, I like leaving Jolteons. But, there is such high turn-over at gyms, I can't tell (yet) if diversifying defense with Jolteons adds value. Maybe I should ignore diversity and just leave the highest HP guy I have.

The only way it makes sense to leave Jolteons for defense is if Niantic exploits their ability to dodge. Does anyone have experience or knowledge of this? I bet few have ever even had to face a Jolteon in a gym.

13

Defending pokemon don't dodge, unless I'm terribly mistaken.

Also, unfortunately for people who like quick pokemon, speed is a very poor stat in the game and renders pokemon like Jolteon almost useless. It doesn't affect the time it takes to dodge, so speed in Pokemon Go is close to being a wasted stat. If you've ever had to fight a Vaporeon with a Jolteon you'll see how terribly unbalanced it is. A Jolteon should destroy a Vaporeon, but Vaporeon has such high HP and atk/special atk that Jolteon is totally outclassed despite having a type advantage.

The way CP is calculated is based off of the base stats in the pokemon games...due to the formula used, Speed (from the pokemon games) barely increases the pokemon go damage/defense values compared to how much the Attack/Special Attack and Defense/Special Defense values do.

BaseStamina = 2 * Hp
BaseAttack  = 2 * ROUND(Atk^0.5 * SpecialAtk^0.5 + Speed^0.5)
BaseDefense = 2 * ROUND(Def^0.5 * SpecialDef^0.5 + Speed^0.5)

Notice how the two have the same relative formula with regards to the two normal/special stats and speed.

taken from: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/4t7r4d/exact_pokemon_cp_formula/

If you viewed this with varying numbers, you'll see that speed has a pretty insignificant effect on BaseAttack, and the best combination of numbers would be a high Attack and high Special Attack (as opposed to only one of those values being really high):

for example, if you had to distribute 300 stat points around, you can see how valuable each one is when calculating BaseAttack (this also holds exactly true for BaseDefense, since it's the same formula with Defense/SpeDefense and Speed):

All equal values:

  • Attack = 100
  • Special Attack = 100
  • Speed = 100

BaseAttack = 220

--

One high stat (not speed):

  • Attack = 200
  • Special Attack = 50
  • Speed = 50

BaseAttack = 214

--

One high stat (0 speed):

  • Attack = 250
  • Special Attack = 50
  • Speed = 0

BaseAttack = 224

--

Equally high attack/special attack:

  • Attack = 150
  • Special Attack = 150
  • Speed = 0

BaseAttack = 300 (!!!)

--

High speed:

  • Attack = 50
  • Special Attack = 50
  • Speed = 200

BaseAttack = 128

pokemon with both high attack/special attack (or defense/special defense) are going to be significantly stronger than a pokemon with high speed.

In game values that are used to calculate how strong a pokemon is:

  Vaporeon       Jolteon
------------  -------------
HP       130  HP         65
Attack    65  Attack     65
Defense   60  Defense    60
Sp. Atk  110  Sp. Atk   110
Sp. Def   95  Sp. Def    95
Speed     65  Speed     130

Vaporeon base attack =  186
Vaporeon base defense = 168
Vaporeon base stamina = 260
Jolteon  base attack =  192 (+6)
Jolteon  base defense = 174 (+6)
Jolteon  base stamina = 130 (-130)

Optimal movesets for Vaporeon/Jolteon are:

Water gun/hydro pump and Thundershock/Thunder.

Water gun (w/ STAB*):   15.0 DPS, rank #4
Thundershock (w/ STAB): 10.4 DPS, rank #54
Hydro pump / thunder are about equal in DPS before type effectiveness.

Type effectiveness / not very effectiveness is 1.25 multiplier.

Water gun on Vaporeon vs Jolteon will do 12 DPS, Thundershock on Jolteon vs Vaporeon will do 13 DPS. Vaporeon has twice the HP of Jolteon and Jolteon's speed barely adds to its defense. Thunder will do some extra damage (after type effectiveness it does about 1.5x the dmg to Vape as Hydro pump does to Jolteon) but it doesn't make up for the equal DPS in quick moves & HP disparity. It's no wonder Vaporeons beat Jolteons handily.

In conclusion, because of the formulas used in the game, fat, slow, pokemon with high HP, equally high Atk/SpecialAtk & Def/SpecialDef are the strongest in the game for battling. Speed is extremely weak regardless of whether or not you're attacking/defending. This is why pokemon like Vaporeon dominate and pokemon like Jolteon are terrible.

*Same type attack bonus. 1.25 multiplier because move type is same type as pokemon type.

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  • 2
    This game needs some kinds of interesting strategic ways to defend gyms... Like always, I just lost a gym with major, major, firepower protecting it. Something needs to change. – Just Someone Aug 19 '16 at 2:37
  • ok. I'm going with the Vaporeon gambit. I'll horde Eeevee candy until I get to level 30, then start evolving Eevee until I get a Vaporeon with HydroPump. Eevee are so common I can feed that beast until he is unbreakable. Electricity should be the Kryptonite, but the electric Pokemon are orders of magnitude weaker... – Just Someone Aug 19 '16 at 4:18
  • @khaeson right now the strategy is to put a very weak pokemon in the first slot and defeat it with a Pokemon with half its CP repeatedly to increase prestige. Right now you get max prestige per battle if you train with a pokemon with half or less CP than the pokemon you're fighting. You can get 1000 prestige per battle if you use, for example, a 50 CP weedle with bug bite VS a 100 CP magikarp you place in the first slot of your gym (and magikarp does almost no damage, so you save a lot of potions). You can actually train faster than people can attack this way. – Matthew Aug 19 '16 at 18:33
  • @khaeson the interesting thing about this strategy is it actually favors weaker CP pokemon in the first slot of a gym. Even if you don't have friends around to place extra pokemon in the gym once you've trained it, having a 10,000 prestige gym with a 50 CP magikarp will take more time to defeat than a gym with 2,000 prestige with a 3000 CP dragonite. Plus, the chances of people coming in and adding pokemon to the open slots is high, and they can use the magikarp to train as well! – Matthew Aug 19 '16 at 18:35
  • @khaeson By design; gyms are meant to be captured; rather than meant to be held. The whole goal of the game is to get people moving - and capturing gym after gym helps accomplish that goal. If people ran to their nearby gym, but couldn't do anything because of the high-leveled player there, they may stop going for gyms, which is opposite of the game's goal. As Matthew alludes to in the previous comment, a "more difficult" gym just means a gym which takes "more time" to capture - rather than becoming a gym which is undefeatable. – DoubleDouble Aug 19 '16 at 20:41

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