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Smash Ultimate continues to have Stale Move Negation.

Simon/Richter Side special is a boomerang glorious, radiant holy cross that can hit multiple times. Simon/Richter Down special is a plume of holy flame/aura that can hit multiple times.

If a boomerang glorious, radiant holy cross/holy water attack is used once and hits multiple times, is it added to the queue once for the attack use or multiple times for the attack hits?

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    I'd be interested in the results (likely the same) for other related moves as well. Link's boomerang, Ness's PK Fire, etc – Unionhawk Jan 10 at 16:39
  • Related, does Move Staleness apply in training mode? I believe in previous games it did not – Malco Jan 10 at 17:39
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    aha found it in the linked wiki page: "In addition, there is now an option [in Ultimate] in Training Mode to toggle stale moves on and off, as opposed to previous games, where no such option was present." – Malco Jan 10 at 17:44
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    @StuperUser yup, should be pretty straight forward to test, but I have no switch with me right now. There have been some pretty good answers to Smash questions recently, maybe scohe001 will drop by with an answer with photos and gifs – Malco Jan 10 at 18:08
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    Hmm staling for multi-hit moves (think Yoshi's down-air/Link's forward-air/Pit's everything/everyone's jab combos) works by adding the move to the queue once if any of the mutli-hits land. That means even if you land 1 of the Yoshi down-air hitboxes, it'll stale just as much as landing all 13. My guess is that projectiles work the same (ie: inputting the move once can only add it to the queue at most once), but if you don't have an answer in the next 4 hours I'll test when I'm home. – scohe001 Jan 10 at 19:49
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Inputting a move once will add it to the Stale Queue at most once.

After multiple tests, I can confirm that a single thrown Holy Cross will be added to the Stale Queue a single time if it hits someone--regardless of how many times it hits or how many people it hits. It deals more damage when it's going away from the Belmont and less when it's coming back, but on the way out, it'll deal 8.4% -> 7.3% -> 6.6% -> ...1.

Here I've tested that with 3 menacing Simon's:

Menacing Simon's

And here they are getting hit2 (click for a larger image):

Multi-hit Staling

And here is me hitting a single Simon right at the edge of the Cross's range so it'll only hit once3:

Single-hit Staling

As you can see, both iterations have the same damage outputs, meaning that a move can't be put into the queue more than once if it's used only once.

So while the Holy Cross works as expected, the Holy Water is actually a little special...

Items don't stale.

As has been the case since Smash 4, items don't stale. This makes sense, since the whole purpose of items like a giant hammer are to hit people repeatedly. But what gets interesting is that moves from characters that produce something grab-able are usually considered items. So things like Mega Man's Metal Blade, Peach's turnips, Link's bomb, etc. are still added to the move queue, but they'll all deal the same damage no matter how often they're used--meaning characters with a special like this can freely refresh all of their moves by filling their queue with an un-stale-able special!

Now if you didn't know, it's actually possible to catch the vial of holy water that the Belmont's throw! If you're looking to test this, I'd suggest using Isabelle or Villager to Pocket the vial with their Neutral-Special and then use Neutral-Special again to bring it out and hold it for you to examine.

Because its grab-able--much to my surprise--the Belmont's holy water counts as an item! As such, it won't stale at all. Being hit by the vial will always deal 3.4% and each hit of the flame will deal 1.6%1.


1. Note that in Smash Ultimate, damage and knockback are adjusted for a 1v1 fight. These are not 1v1 values, so while they'll be true in a team battle, the numbers will be 1.2x higher in 1v1.

2. Ignore the differing percents on the Simon's, one of them got up a little too early and so didn't get hit with the Cross coming back. Look at the Damage box on the right for the value of the last bit of damage a CPU took.

3. I was forced to bring another Simon in to stand in the back to prevent being bumped up to 1v1 damage. See [1] for more.

  • Another great answer! Thanks for taking the time do such a thorough look into it. I didn't know that items didn't stale, so that is good to keep in mind. – Malco Jan 11 at 15:10
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    Fantastic answer! I've updated my question to pay suitable respect to the not-boomerang – StuperUser Jan 11 at 16:02
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    @StuperUser ha! I was worried you might have taken that the wrong way--looks like there was no need to fret. I think I'll leave it out just to avoid ruffling feathers, but I'm glad I've instilled a respect for the Holy Cross :p – scohe001 Jan 11 at 16:26

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